Faith & Institution
feat. Wild Maven Wellness (pt 1)
Annie Mesaros [Spiritual Counselor]
Baltimore, MD
How does one rebuild after their foundational beliefs collapse? Annie traces her path from a rule-based Presbyterian upbringing, through a devastating crisis of faith known as the "Dark Night of the Soul," to her current work helping others shed shame and rediscover their own inner authority and intuition.
EPISODE OUTLINE
Foundation of Faith
(00:03:30 - 00:09:00)
Annie describes her childhood in a Seattle mega-church, which served as a vibrant second family. She recounts sacred, positive rituals like receiving her first Bible in fourth grade, which established a foundational belief in a loving, personal God and a strong sense of community.Unlearning A Legacy of Shame & Control
(00:13:42 - 00:23:03)
The conversation shifts to the rigid doctrine of her adolescence, specifically the purity movement. Annie details how its teachings instilled deep shame, demonized sexuality and LGBTQ+ identities, and systematically taught her to distrust her own body, desires, and intuition, creating a profound inner conflict.Finding a New Path
(00:24:48 - 00:29:31)
Annie recounts her "Dark Night of the Soul"—a terrifying period where she felt God's absence. This crisis became the catalyst for her deconstruction. She concludes by connecting her past to her present work as an "emotional support witch," explaining how she now guides others through "spiritual exfoliation" to shed external dogma and trust their inner wisdom.
RESOURCES
[Episode] Aubrey & Molly: Dandelion Salon & Apothecary
[Episode] Elyse: Be More Connected
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TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Intro music plays…
[00:00:08] Aubrey:
I'm Aubrey, your host, and I love an invisible string theory, and this episode marks the third time I get to host a guest I met as a result of a previous guest. For Context, Aubrey became my hairstylist ten years ago (yes, we are both named Aubrey, and we love it) and a few years in we were becoming good friends. This is also where I met her best friend, and future business partner, Molly; who I both now consider extremely good friends and was lucky to host on the podcast. I'll highlight their episode in the show notes.
In their first year of business for Dandelion Salon and Apothecary, they hosted a Winter Wellness event where I met Elyse Preston. She was there doing Human Design readings. Human Design actually became an incredibly helpful tool for me in building customized ADHD strategies. If you don't know what human design is I'll put some links in the show notes for this as well; if you're into any form of like, Astrology, star charts, you're welcome. But also Elyse just has one of those personalities you want to be around. So I wanted to stay in touch and eventually all led to her being on the podcast, which I will also highlight in the show notes.
Since, Elyse has become even more of a dear friend; then also introduced me to so many creatives and change makers here in Baltimore. Which all leads to my guest today: Annie Mesaros of Wild Maven Wellness. Annie is a Theologian turned “emotional support witch” as she says. If you have listened to any previous episodes, you've likely heard me go on a thought spiral, or two, about struggling to claim my own identity. A lot of this struggle was rooted in the fact that I had grown up in many different cultures, and then as an adult fell out of practice for pretty much all of them, leaving me unsure what I could and/or really wanted to carry forward, as I built new traditions and rituals for myself. And I really started to find progress on that journey when I met Annie. Having her here today is a full circle moment.
We've covered a lot of territory in our conversation, so I made the decision to make this into two episodes. The first part, we'll focus mostly on Annie's personal background, growing up in a megachurch of the nineties. We had a really open-hearted conversation, sharing childhood experiences from our different religions and how these experiences have helped shape us.
The second part focuses on why she left the church, but not her spiritual beliefs, which opened the door to start Wild Maven Wellness, and how she now helps others on their own journeys to spiritual freedom.
Music fades in…
Thank you truly for spending time listening to The Golden Approach. A podcast where I chat with people, I think embody the idea that we can have our cake and eat it too. Because when we learn from each other, we collectively create a better future for us all. One led by curiosity, hope, empathy, and reciprocity.
Now, without further ado, let's get to the good stuff.
Music fades out…
[00:03:17] Aubrey:
Hi Annie, how are you today?
[00:03:19] Annie:
I'm well. How are you, Aubrey?
[00:03:21] Aubrey:
Good, thank you. I really appreciate you being here on The Golden Approach. We're gonna start with some simple questions, just like who are you? What'cha into?
[00:03:30] Annie:
I'm Annie. I use she/her pronouns, and I'm an emotional support witch. I live in Baltimore. I'm the founder of Wild Maven Wellness, and I really enjoy being with people on their spiritual journey, often in community settings and often one-on-one, and just being curious about people's stories, and how to help them. I think a theme that came up with a group the other night was like, growing in self-trust. And I'm very passionate about helping people shrug off “shoulds” and maybe trust a little bit more in their dreams.
[00:04:09] Aubrey:
Yes. Love that. We need more of that energy these days. I feel like most people in their day-to-day have probably not crossed paths with someone who does what you do. I know I personally hadn't. So, I wanna take it back a few steps and talk about your history that you feel comfortable sharing. Because so many of us are shaped by our younger years, and I am grateful that you were really honest with me before we started recording about what an interesting background you come from. I think it speaks a lot to the work that you do. So I would love to hear more, paint that picture: what did that look like? sound like? feel like? et cetera.
[00:04:53] Annie:
Yeah, absolutely. In my growing up years, even into, like, my adult growing up years, which I may still be in the midst of, who knows? I would say there were lots of ups and downs, and things that I look back on fondly, and things that I have been angry about. But even before I get into it, I just always like to say, like, all of it shaped who I am. And I really like who I am. And so that has actually helped me release some regrets and anger. All I can do now is just look at who I am and be grateful for that.
But I grew up in Edmonds, which is a suburb of Seattle. It's just north of the city in western Washington; very beautiful area, right on Puget Sound. And lots of trees and mountains around. I grew up in a very neighborhoody-neighborhood. It was all cul-de-sacs with one entrance off this main road, with lots of families of similar ages. So like my siblings and I, I am the youngest of three, so my siblings and I all had like age-mates and we could just run around, and ride bikes in the streets, and we had big backyards, and dogs, and a soccer field right behind our house, and it was great. I also have a lot of memories of just like, being alone, and I don't really know what that's about, because I had a very full house in a very full neighborhood. So there's a mix of like, bitter and sweet.
So yeah, just things like that. You know, there was like conflict and there's strained relationships, and things like that. But I think overall just really grateful for the people that I'm related to and that we got to share a lot of time together.
[00:06:33] Aubrey:
I just think it's so lovely like that you were able to not only have this range of experiences, but that you've been able to like truly grow up at peace with all of it. 'Cause for a lot of people that's not true. And you know, I think it's nice to be reminded.
So I think an extra layer that I appreciate that you're willing to talk about, is the religious aspect of your background. So do you mind giving that, like, extra layer of detail to your story? 'Cause I think it comes into play a lot later.
[00:07:11] Annie:
Absolutely. And it came into play a lot at the time too. My second family, and my second home, was really my church. And I grew up in University Presbyterian Church in Seattle. It's right next to UDub and we would like commute from the suburbs into church, like usually a couple times on Sunday. But then when we got into high school, like, youth group that was in the evenings on Sunday, we'd, like, Wednesday night Bible study; my parents had a bible study that met in our house. It was a huge church. Like at that time it would be considered a mega church. But I often think of the term mega church as being like non-denominational. Kind of like what I attended in college in Southern California, which I can get into although it wasn't quite as formative. But, growing up at University Presbyterian, it was technically a mega church; which is I think over a thousand people in attendance. And it was like five thousand every Sunday over five services, huge youth group, huge Sunday school program; like just everything big. I'll say it's not that big anymore. They have been losing people like crazy. Including me. It was just like a very busy place, and that really was my second family for sure.
[00:08:23] Aubrey:
As someone who grew up as a re-constructionist Jew, who rented from a church, this is so far from anything like I grew up with. Even in the Lutheran church I went to as a kid, like this is a whole different game.
[00:08:35] Annie:
So this is, it's a whole different planet truly. And to give some other context I ended up working there in my early twenties, for about three years. And I was on the Communications team of seven. So most churches do not need to communicate that much. Most churches don't even have seven people on staff. We probably had around eighty people on staff when I was there.
[00:09:00] Aubrey:
I think this is just really important context, and gives like really good perspective. Which, like, I find human nature really interesting. And so, like, I know that that feeling you get like at a concert, you know, when you're like feeling that music, it’s like really connecting with you, and you're having a healing moment, and you're doing that in a crowd, and you're all sort of having that experience together. Like that energy is palpable. And to do that in a religious experience or, sort of, religious arena with like a thousand other people, I can just only imagine how, like, realistic, like tangible, the emotions of someone in that room could feel. So just again, I really appreciate you sharing things from a firsthand experience.
Sound of chimes…
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Okay, let's jump back in.
Sound of chimes…
[00:10:30] Aubrey:
So is there like, a more, close to your heart, sort of story, or anything from your younger years that you wanna share that you think is important to who you are? And like why you've journey-ed the way you've journey-ed through life?
[00:10:46] Annie:
Yeah, I think I'll tell you a little bit about being in fourth grade in church, that was a really important time for girls in our church. I can't speak to the boy experience. But there's a lot of, like, ritual in religion in general, and I still really enjoy ritual as you know, and have participated in with me. Um, they look a little bit different now. But in fourth grade, that was the year that we got our bibles. This is just in this church. I'm sure other churches have similar rites of passage, but essentially you're being entrusted with a copy of the Bible, which is the word of God. And, there's some like ceremony around that, and there's some preparation for that. And also an expectation of, you have this direct access to God, that is part of Protestant belief and part of Presbyterian belief, that it does not need to necessarily be mediated through a priest.
However, there's also a lot of like, doctrine to be understood, and like a lens, and teaching. And there's a lot of what we believe and we'll see as we get into my story later, like I, at some point, I no longer identified with the “we” because I didn't identify with the beliefs. And there was not enough flexibility within the theology, or within the doctrine, to remain a part of the family if I didn't agree with the beliefs, if that makes sense.
[00:12:23] Aubrey:
That's a lot at such a young age, and I just wanna add this in that, fourth grade… 'cause I feel like as I get older, I forget like, how young you are in these grades. So like fourth grade's probably eight to ten, right?
[00:12:36] Annie:
I have several chosen sisters now as an adult, and one of them, her daughter who is ten, just started fifth grade.
[00:12:44] Aubrey:
So yeah, like, I have a late birthday, so it's always hard for me to judge. So anyway, I feel like our little frontal lobes, I don't think have any capacity; like, fully grasp, like, the intensity of what that means as we do as an adult. So like I can see that as being like a very, yeah, like impactful time.
[00:13:04] Annie:
It wasn't overtly explained that way to us, but it was like all the lessons. I think maybe we got our Bibles like in October, which was early in the year 'cause it felt like we were doing a lot of preparation. There were like weeks in Sunday school leading up to that where we were learning about “what is the Bible?” and “what does it say?” and “how do you use it?” And things like that. And I remember we like sewed, like we had the kind of like little quilted fabric, and we like sewed covers for our Bibles. Like it was a lot of, like, anticipation, and it made it really special. That is a time that I think a lot of my peers look back on as like, a very sacred and formative time in a good way.
[00:13:42] Aubrey:
That's what I mean. Like it must be like so special and impactful at an age like that.
[00:13:47] Annie:
Yeah. And it wasn't, we weren't yet into the like, “you better believe this, or else” …that came later.
[00:13:52] Aubrey:
…not what I, sorry, that's not what I mean at all. Like there's a certain level of, like, imagination and purity, and just sweetness that exists in childhood. And to get handed your own, and to say this is from God. …yeah. I just imagine the level of like, love, just all those kinds of feelings. Um, I didn't do a Bat Mitzvah, but I did have enough experiences between growing up Lakota and Jewish to know what you're referring to. So I guess that's what I mean. I think all of us in one way or another, have that moment as a child. And I think religion brings that most often for all of us.
[00:14:30] Annie:
Yeah. My friend Mary is a really brilliant eco-theologian and she has been very intentional. She and her husband, with their four kids of like, I think it's maybe when they turn 10 or could be a little bit older, where yeah, they have a sacred right that they go through that's like designed for that child. And I think that tradition in their family was really born out of, this is an ancient practice to bring children, like, up and forward, and mark some kind of transition.
I had a Rabbi friend tell me one time that Bar Mitzvah was, she was speaking about her son's Bar Mitzvah, her daughter had already been Bat Mitzvah-ed, but it's when you're becoming a citizen in, like, the Jewish community, or in the world. It's something, you're nodding, so you probably know the actual language. And I don't think I'd heard that before. I think it was like, your Jewish friend turns thirteen and they have a ceremony, and a party, but for her it was like, “now you are like an adult citizen in our community.”
[00:15:28] Aubrey:
Yeah. Growing up in three different religious practices I'm not like the most practicing Jew by any means, um, what has always stuck with me, and why I continue to identify so strongly as a Jewish person is because of the morals that were taught to me, through that religion, that like Mitzvahs are a very important practice, which is like to do good. And even if I haven't heard someone describe it in those exact words, what your friend was saying, I think is an authentic representation of, like, how I remember being raised Jewish. That, like, this is a community that you're committed to, that requires ongoing care from each of us to ensure our long-term, like, happiness. Not only as individuals, but as a community, as a religion; ongoing, that has never been guaranteed its existence.
I think it's a very special way to look at it that way. And I don't know if everyone uses that language, but I think your friends are going into it from what it sounds like to me, with the exact same intention. And that is like the beautiful thing in all religions, that we all have these, like, routine practices and special moments as we evolve.
[00:16:50] Annie:
Yeah. And there I have such, like, stark memories from that year of Sunday school. You know, we went up before the whole congregation and we were given a Bible by the senior Pastor, and it had a, like little, I don't know, like a little insert in the front that was like, “this Bible was presented to Annie on whatever day.” And then for the rest of the year it was like we were really learning the different parts of the Bible. So it's like, start with the gospels 'cause those are Jesus stories and then you graduate to more difficult texts like the Pauline letters or the Old Testament, and have a little bit more difficult things to unpack and nuance things to understand. But I have, like, specific memories of being there.
Like Jan brought in her, I think it was like son's dog or something, and put like a sheepskin over its back and it was like, this is the sheep. It's things like that. First of all, it's hilarious to me that like in lessons and sermons, and things like that, it's you remember the imagery, but not necessarily what the point was. Like obviously this sweet dog was the sheep, but it was like very novel that she brought in a dog dressed as a sheep to church.
[00:17:56] Aubrey:
Have you ever heard of Purim?
[00:17:57] Annie:
That is the Esther related one?
[00:18:01] Aubrey:
Yes.
[00:18:02] Annie:
Tents or no tents?
[00:18:04] Aubrey:
Tents?
[00:18:06] Annie:
Which one's the one where you have a It's on a tent, but it's
[00:18:09] Aubrey:
Oh, Sukkot. Is that what you're talking about?
[00:18:10] Annie:
Yeah, Sukkot.
[00:18:11] Aubrey:
Oh, okay. Okay. I'm not that, I'm not that unpracticed. But so Purim, the reason that you made me think of this, so that one is the one where you all dress up. Purim was a costume contest where you all picked a character from the story and then, like, you would get a prize based on who had like the best costume of that person. And like, you make a bunch of noise and it's a big party, and yeah. Could I tell you every character in that story? No. Do I remember that there's cookies and costumes involved? Yes. That absolutely I do.
[00:18:42] Annie:
That's amazing. And so the key takeaways from that year that will be important for us to come back to, or to understand later is, Jesus loves you. Jesus is your friend, your confidant, your savior. He is here for you no matter what. He will never leave you and he is for you. Like he's your advocate, your best friend. He's everything. And he is like all goodness, and he wants only good things for you. So let's, like, all just hold that in our minds for what will happen later in the same church.
So that experience in fourth grade I think really exemplifies like so much of what I was raised with of just, God is love and this is your family. And from basically every grade after that also, things became much more rigid. And this is a very nineties white church thing, but I was raised in the purity movement. Which, there have been many books written about it. My friend Lauren Sawyer has a book coming out in December.
[00:19:45] Aubrey:
When it publishes, let me know and we'll add it to our bookshop.org shelf of books, options from suggestions of guests on the show. So we'll definitely add it.
[00:19:55] Annie:
Yeah. And I could even look up the title, which I feel like I should know off the top of my head. But yeah, it was this very much like, “sex is demonized,” “sexuality is demonized,” “you don't really have to teach girls about sex because girls don't experience desire in that way, or if they do, it should just be like, shut down.”
Boys on the other hand, can't really control their desire. So girls have to be like the protectors, and the gatekeepers. So basically, all of that to say, I got a very clear message that like, sex is dangerous, and men in particular are dangerous.
[00:20:28] Aubrey:
…shame face…
[00:20:29] Annie:
Yeah, it's like it was really bad. But that's where the rigid part comes in. The rigid part is, like, the rules, the shame that I internalized. And again, not everybody experienced it that way. Plenty of people went through the same youth group or the same movement in other churches and came out, like, pretty unscathed, and other people are right there with me. Like we're in our late thirties being like, how do I continue to heal from these messages that were so personal?
And another key point of that too is that, there was like a very strong, like, demonization. And if possible at the same, if you could demonize something and erase it at the same time, demonization of all L-G-B-T-Q people, behaviors, identities, anything like that. and so I was like so ready for all of that. Like I was just like, give me a rule and I will follow it. Which is weird because I also had questions, and I also was really into nature. And I remember walking on the beach with my Mom, like all growing up. Like we would go to the beach and she would just be like, “I'm just gonna sit here and pray for a while.” And it's yeah, like just to gaze at water and be in the presence of God. And like all of these really good things that, like, I still I love to go sit by the water and meditate and take in, like a sense of like, creation, and the universe and whatever divine presence is with us.
And so I guess it's just like, always challenging me to like, embrace nuance in my own story; where I'm like, there was so much harm in the rigidity of those messages. In the ways that, like, I was redirected away from my intuition. And basically I think through the purity movement the main messages, aside from like, sex is dangerous, men are dangerous. The other thing I learned was like basically, if my heart is telling me to do something, I should do the opposite because that is wrong, and that is what I think I will spend my life on learning and relearning because I believe that like, I contain a great deal of wisdom. That I can trust my body, and my gut, and my heart. I can trust my intuition. But that is so like the opposite of the message that I got.
[00:23:03] Aubrey:
Yeah. That kind of stuff really cracks my heart open because, again, I completely agree with you. People can go through all sorts of life experiences and have a very joyous time, and other people can come out the same experience, not, un- unscathed. But this theme I do think is very common. And so it makes me sad because I think such a big missing puzzle piece of where we are right now is like: empathy, intuition. And like those are very feminine themes. And I do think there's something to be said about how these always go hand in hand. This like, purity movement, like you were saying, like female responsibility, female restriction that… Through the conversation of sex, but is so much bigger than just sex. That is like women's, like, how they approach life and how people absorb them or experience them. And we are dealing with these symptoms, I think, of telling so many women to feel shame and guilt and to feel small. And I just, for whatever soapbox people are willing to listen to, I just think there's a lot to unpack here in going back and building comfort and confidence, like in those more feminine themes; whether you are a man or a woman. Because if it's being shamed out of women, it's sure as hell being shamed out of men.
[00:24:29] Annie:
Mm-hmm.
[00:24:31] Aubrey:
And to speak to that queer experience, like it, those all go hand in hand. It's the same like rooted issue and fear. So I appreciate you sharing that. And I'm sorry that so many people have had to go through such a similar experience.
[00:24:48] Annie:
Yeah, I'm really sorry that it happened. I've been very angry at different times in my life. and like I said at the beginning, like I just really like who I am and I was so shaped by it that I don't know that I can be like that mad about it anymore. But it does, I think, like you were saying, just like to give context to this whole conversation. Like it explains so much about what I'm offering now in my work as a spiritual counselor, as a witch, where I see like, what I have to offer the world, and how much people are struggling now.
I totally agree with you that it's the like lack of being able to hear our own inner voice and feeling, just the weight of all of these oppressive systems that we live under and I just want my work to be about helping people disentangle themselves from those systems in any way possible, and embrace like who they were made to be; like who they already are. And to me, this is all about like sloughing off layers that have been put on us externally. That you don't have to become anything, you already are. It's just being clouded over by the bullshit that other people have put on you. And systems.
[00:26:14] Aubrey:
Yes. Okay. Anyone who's actually ever listened to an episode prior to this, please go back and listen to episodes if you haven't, but this is a very re-occurring theme on this show for me. In the talk of shedding layers, shedding baggage, shedding old habits. I just constantly remind people, it is like when you are, going through your house and you're deciding like, “what do you keep? 'cause you love it.” “What do you, like, want to DIY update, whatever?” “And what do you wanna get rid of? What are we recycling? What are we trashing?” It is the exact same.
And I agree with you, we don't need to go search to become other people. We just need to like, I love that detangle or put things down
[00:26:54] Annie:
Yeah. A little spiritual exfoliation.
[00:26:56] Aubrey:
Ooh, I love that.
[00:26:58] Annie:
A lot of spiritual exfoliation. Yes. What's good for the skin is good.
So, yeah, all that to say I had been through like the childhood, “God is love” and “God loves you so unconditionally and so deeply.” And then the adolescent rules, rules, rules; don't slip up at all. You know, there was always this like, whenever you would go to camp in the summer, there would be a female counselor that'd split the boys and girls. A female counselor would stand up and be like, “I had sex and it's the biggest regret of my life and I'm just so grateful God would ever forgive me and God's gonna give me back my spiritual virginity and just don't do what I did. and just made me so fearful of my own body and my own desire.” And there wasn't an alternative narrative like, that was it. And I was like, well, this must be it. And I know that God wants the best for me, so this is what's best for me.
[00:27:58] Annie:
Um, and then I went to college. I went to Chapman University in southern California. Had a wonderful experience and I also went to a cuckoo-bananas, like another mega church. But that one was more of like the skinny jeans, like surfer dude, Southern California church, which is also a whole ‘nother thing. But during that time, and this is actually interesting to your point about going to a concert experience and having that, like, emotional response. 'Cause I know a lot of people who have left the church, I'm actually not really a big music person, but a lot of people I know who have left the church will talk about live music, But we are taught like, that's the Holy Spirit in, livening you in here. Not just like a human response to like how music has like, a very real physiological and psychological impact in a good way. Like music is really good for people. Maybe not for me 'cause I don't really respond to it, but
[00:28:57] Aubrey:
That's all right.
[00:28:57] Annie:
…art in general.
[00:28:58] Aubrey:
Whenever you're art,
[00:28:59] Annie:
I'm like such a deeply spiritual person and I have a lot of empathy and I swear like I really love deeply, but there's ten-percent of me that's… am I a robot?
[00:29:10] Aubrey:
I think we're all just becoming more robotic, like the amount of cords I am tangled in just doing a podcast; feels like an umbilical cord attached to the computers. Um, attached to your host. Honestly, who knows what this matrix we live in. I have no idea. What do I know? I'm a silly little human with a lizard brain. Anyway, please continue.
[00:29:31] Annie:
All that to say I was having those experiences and like you go to a good worship service and you're like, “oh, that was a really good one. I really felt something.” And so the Dark Night of the Soul is the opposite of that. So in my spring, of my junior year of college in 2008, I noticed, it was like kind of slowly waking up to this reality. It's almost like, um, if you like, haven't seen a friend for a while and you're like, “when was the last time I talked to Aubrey?” You know, like something like that. Like it slowly dawned on me that God was gone.
[00:30:06] Aubrey:
Interesting.
[00:30:07] Annie:
That lasted for around six months. It was, the realization was somewhat slow and actually the resolution of it was also somewhat gradual. But once I figured out what I was feeling, and what was happening, it was terrifying.
It was like, and this is very difficult to describe to people if you haven't had a spiritual experience or a religious experience. and I am sorry, I don't know how else to describe it for those folks, but it was basically feeling like being in like, an energetic or like spiritual vacuum. Or even if you've been loved by someone or you've loved someone, like there's a felt sense, right? But then just imagine it's just like they're gone. Like, yeah, so I can't access that anymore.
[00:30:58] Aubrey:
Yeah. So what I am starting to take it as is, that sense of constant companionship, that centered self that makes you not feel so lonely or lost. No matter how you find that. You can find, like you were saying, you can find that in nature. You can find that in Harry Potter. You can find that in Star Wars. You can find that in God. Wherever I guess you find that like, constant reliable source that you can channel emotionally into that's love. Yeah. As far as I'm aware, love is God.
So
[00:31:33] Annie:
Yeah. And the, that, and maybe this is actually interesting to think about. So the term, the Dark Knight of the Soul was coined by St. John of the Cross who was a monk in Spain in the fifteen-hundreds.
[00:31:46] Aubrey:
Interesting.
[00:31:46] Annie:
And, he was speaking from a particular religious experience, which very much resonates with me as well. But I'm now wondering as you say that, if I had more like diverse spiritual practices, could it have happened? Because it's essentially, take maybe like a handful of the things that you said, right? So in my case, it was like praying, reading my Bible, going to church, taking communion, these were ways that I could like, reliably access God. It wasn't like every time I sat down to read my Bible, I had a spiritual or religious experience, but it was most of the time, right? Like I could say if I need comfort or wisdom, or a sense of connection to something bigger than myself. Which is how I typically talk about spirituality. I can pray, I can journal, I can read my Bible, I can go to church. So it's like those things are, I just took them for granted and then I could pick up any one of those things during this season. In 2008, I could pick up any one of those things, but it would just be empty. So I would turn to a different one and that one would be empty too. And I would turn to another one and that would be empty.
[00:33:06] Aubrey:
It's definitely gotta be like, very intimidating feeling.
[00:33:09] Annie:
It was like, it felt like I was drowning. Nobody around me understood what I was trying to say. And that went on for months until actually my friend Liz, childhood friend from church, she was going to Gonzaga; which is a Jesuit university, and St. John of the Cross was Jesuit. And so they were reading him for some class and she, again, like early two-thousands, she photocopied part of her reading for class and mailed it to me in the mail.
[00:33:46] Aubrey:
Oh, what a good flashback to such a more innocent time.
[00:33:50] Annie:
And I've looked for it since then. I don't think I have it, but yeah, she just was like, I know you've been having a hard time describing what you've been going through. Could this be it? And I was like, that finally gave language.
[00:34:03] Aubrey:
Wow. Okay. So many fascinating things that I'm going to thought-spiral about probably for the rest of the day. 'Cause I am ADHD, and a nerd. I think it's so interesting for us to have this conversation because I think these are very like, universal experiences. And so it just speaks a bit to the time, all the pieces of this puzzle that you're saying, like feeling that absence, that loneliness, that. disconnect from those around you and them not either knowing how to relate to you or not willing to admit that they know what you're going through. There's just a lot in there that I think is so universal, especially at that age.
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Thank you for listening to the Golden Approach. If you liked this episode, I highly recommend listening to my chat with Sarah Knight, a chef turned educator and activist who shares with us her commitment to ethical and sustainable living practices. You'll find it linked in the show notes.
This podcast was created, recorded, and edited by me: Aubrey. With audio technology and support provided by Hannah, of Barn Swallow Audio Company. If you've liked this episode or any episode prior, be sure to follow us so you never miss a new release. We greatly appreciate you helping others find the podcast by leaving a review wherever you're currently listening, or directly sharing with friends and family. You can find extended resources, merch, and more in the show notes, and on our website, goldenapproachpodcast.com.
Till next time,
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Episode Resources:
[Episode] Aubrey & Molly: Dandelion Salon & Apothecary
[Episode] Elyse: Be More Connected
If you liked this episode, I highly recommend listening to my chat with Sarah Knight, a chef turned educator and activist who shares with us her commitment to ethical and sustainable living practices. You'll find it linked in the show notes.
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